Splošna debata - iRacing

[Paps 597]

iRacing Development blog – Dynamic Tracks and more 

iRacing – The Corvette C7 Daytona Prototype Preview Video

Uredil September 4, 2015 - Paps

[markop 702]

Wow. Sem bral po forumih špekulacije, da bo to v S3 releasu samo si nisem mislil, da jim bo res uspelo.

Še opazka... ...2~3 tedne sem dal IR na stran in furam zgolj AC. No, par dni nazaj sem šel spet par krogov v IR. Kaj naj rečem. AC je neprimerno boljši kar se tiče občutka zdrsa gume in občutka hitrosti.

[B_U_R_I 3 290]

Mi je malo žal, da nimam več časa za tole. Po drugi strani pa mi zaradi zadnjega stavka niti ni. Sklepam, da tudi z novo verzijo ne bo nič kaj drugače. 

Uredil September 4, 2015 - Matjaž Murn

[markop 702]

Iz release notes za septemberski build:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Dynamic Track 

- The track surface is now dynamic, and models the changes in track rubber, marbles, and temperature. Track rubber is built up under the tires in rough proportion to how hard they are working. Tires generate marbles, and these can accumulate on tires and be thrown off and redistributed on the track. Temperature is variable across the track and is influenced by weather, the position of the sun in the sky, the surface angle of the track, albedo (color), track rubber, shadows, and interaction with cars. 

- These variable aspects of the track affect the level and characteristics of tire grip available, and the wear rate. Generally, a rubbered-in but cool track free of marbles will offer the most grip. 

- Initial track conditions can be specified for testing and private hosting sessions. The amount of running activity on the track prior to the session can be specified as a percentage, or left to be determined automatically based on the session type. The percent usage amount determines the level of track rubber and marbles at session start. In a multi-session event, each session can be specified individually to simulate changes to the track between sessions due to additional running or from an overnight rain, or a session may be designated to follow immediately and inherit the track state from the previous session. Marbles can be cleaned off the racing surface prior to the session, and also during yellow flags on ovals, or they can be left undisturbed. 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                   

Še kopica drugih popravkov/izboljšav. O kakšni spremembi okoli FFB nič ne govorijo, če se navežem na Matjaža zgoraj.

Uredil September 7, 2015 - MarkoP

[markop 702]

Hehe.... kjer je software tam je težava

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

While debugging some recent problem reports, we identified that there are cases where the graphics engine may be overwriting texture memory mapped by Direct3D leading to graphical errors, hangs, and crashes. 
In particular, when dynamic track rendering is enabled, and the marbles/rubber appear in narrow bands, this probably indicates it is happening with your configuration. 
It is most likely to occur if you are running in a window and your desktop is configured to use a 16-bit color mode, or if you select a 16 bit color mode in a full screen mode, such as 1920x1080x16. It is less likely to happen in 32-bit color modes, such as 1920x1080x32. 
There may be other cases that can trigger this bug. It may happen even in 32-bit color modes in some cases, or on certain GPU/driver combinations. 
We have a fix for this issue in progress and plan to release a patch as soon as we can! 
If you are experiencing graphical issues, hangs, or crashes, it may help to disable the "render dynamic track" option in the advanced graphics options until we release the patch.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        

V soboto sem se malo podil po IR spet. Res škoda, da nimamo AC engine in vse ostalo iz IR. V fiziki se mi niti ne zdi veliek razlika, FFB pa je konceptualno drugačen. AC preneša večino preko FFB, medtem ko pri IR FFB zgolj sledi profilu steze. Torej, če je grbina jo bo FFB povzel. Povzel bo tudi robnike in ostale karkateristike steze. Kar se pa tiče zdrsa gum, understeer,... pa IR to skuša preko zvoka prenašat vozniku. In tu se mi zdi bistvena razlika med AC in IR.

[silicijeva dolina 1 254]

Če prav razumem,torej,če ti avto zanese,ali pa ko v prazno vrti kolesa pri IR FFB tega ne javi ampak samo slišimo?

[markop 702]

IR dosti slabše prenaša preko FFB zdrs gum ali pa blokiranje gum ob bremzanju. Mogoče bolje kot beseda "slabše" paše beseda "subtilno". V zvezi s tem sem malo špiknil Davida Tuckerja, ki je pri IR zadolžen za FFB. Spodaj povzemem moje vprašanje in njegov odgovor. Pred tem pa samo še moja izkušnja. Ko sem vozil večino IR in vsake tolko AC je bila moja glavna težava ravno zvok, saj sem mislil, da bom letel v zid, glede na zvok iz AC, čeprav je gripa bilo še dovolj.

David, please don't take this a blaming, but just as an "thinking out loud". So the last 3~4 weeks I was fully into Assetto as I was lacking the last tracks of the RUF cup. 

There seems to be a conceptual difference on how the sim uses FFB. IR seems to rely more on audio when it comes to simulate the tires loosing grip or to simulate understeer. AC seems to use FFB more to simulate those things and frankly they did an awesome and incredible job in translating all this to the wheel (coupled with audio). The difference in AC and IR is almost like "predict in IR" versus "feel it in AC". 

Now, I'm not writing this to start a AC vs IR thread. Not by all means. I'm more interested what is the IR team mid-term vision in regards to FFB ? Are there any improvements in plan or any bigger plan in changing the FFB behavior ? 

Thanks, Marko

Like most things we concentrate on simulating the exact forces at the wheel in iRacing. That leaves something to be desired if your wheel can only output 10% of the force that a real car can. We do provide the 'non linear' output by default, this does a good job of effectively doubling the force at the wheel, but that is still not nearly the same as using hardware that is 10x stronger. 

I personally have very limited experience with the other games out there, but from what little I have tested they all felt rather lifeless to me. That could just have come down to setup, since I did not spend any time trying to configure them optimally. However I suspect that most games concentrate on one particular effect (oversteer, etc) and sacrifice the rest of the feelings in the process. That makes sense if you are targeting a wheel that only has 1/10th the force of the real car, there just is not enough resolution to really make the force feedback sing. 

As you get better and better wheels, you will discover that the detail in our force feedback is amazing, and very organic, that is it changes all the time, instead of feeling very digital. As I have said before, it is a trade off. I think we feel the best when using a strong wheel, while others may actually feel better with a weak wheel (but that is not my experience). Our focus is on getting things as close to reality as possible, that way when the hardware catches up with the software it just feels right, and it gives us a measurable target, instead of just going by feel.

Med vrsticami lahko povzameš, da je IR seveda najboljši in da povzema tisto, kar se v resnici dogaja. Je s tem hotel povedat, da AC simulira neka jkar ne obstaja ? Ker mi ni dalo miru sem mu še osebno pisal in je zopet med vrsticami napisal, da AC pretirava z efekti in da to ni to. Napisal je tudi, da je recimo Fanatec CSW v2 na spodnji meji, kjer se nato zadeva začne zares. Jasno, vsak naj si mnenje ustvari sam

[Arne Dopudja 726]

Čeprov, ima pojnt dec. Če hočeš top špile vedno na ultra high quality igrat, moraš vsake 2 leti novo kišto kupit. Isto z volani.

[markop 702]

Me pa zanima o kaksni primerni moci volana govori. Navor nekega g27 se meri v nekaj mili Nm. Ne predstsvljam si, da bi imel volan 20Nm. To je faktor nekaj tisockrat vec. Saj ti roko zlomi. 

[Tjaž Brelih 76]

Po drugi strani je pa tudi res, da v kolikor bi bil sam v njegovi vlogi, ne bi govoril, da imajo druge simulacije boljši FFB.

[B_U_R_I 3 290]

Me pa zanima o kaksni primerni moci volana govori. Navor nekega g27 se meri v nekaj mili Nm. Ne predstsvljam si, da bi imel volan 20Nm. To je faktor nekaj tisockrat vec. Saj ti roko zlomi. 

G27 ima cca. 3 Nm navora. CSW v2 ima malenkost več kot 7 Nm navora. Ne vem kje je on dobil volan z 10x večjo močjo (70 Nm).

In ja - Assetto Corsa preko FFBja res daje ven efekte, ki jih v resnici na volanu ne čutiš. S tem kompenziraš pomanjkanje ostalih sil, ki ti pomagajo predvidevati kaj se z avtom dogaja. iRacing pa simulira (naj bi) dejanske sile na volanskem drogu.

[silicijeva dolina 1 254]

Kolikor vem je Frex najmočnejši volan na sceni in ima 13Nm navora. Že ta navor ti ga lahko spipa iz rok ali pa celo poškoduje zapestje

[Arne Dopudja 726]

Ja sej dejanski volan ti jo tut lahko če prbije orng.

[markop 702]

http://opensimwheel.wikidot.com/

Tu se govori o 20+ Nm.

[B_U_R_I 3 290]

Accuforce Wheel ima 13 Nm, Bodnar Wheel ima 21 Nm, OSW pa naj bi imel 29 Nm.

To so max vrednosti, ki jih pri normalni rabi ti volani nikoli ne dosežejo. Za tako moč se morajo vrteti s hitrostjo 2500 RPM, kar pa vsi vemo, da je nemogoče.